John Wesley and the Gradual Clean-up

Is sanctification a process of sinning less and less or an act where a genuine convert grows more and more in righteousness and true holiness? Today, universally, the Church continues to embrace the concept of sanctification (to set apart for special use or purpose) as being an indefinite process of forsaking sins by degrees (which equates to a lifetime struggle with personal disobedience). Consequently, the old man (carnal mind) is being ushered into the Spiritual kingdom of Christ alive and well, which means, sinful man is being saved in his sins rather then out of them! Because of this very dilemma, Church leadership has become obligated (due to high demand!) to produce mass amounts of materials (dvd's, cd's, booklets, study Bibles, etc...) and hold classes (seminars, counseling centers, social events, etc...) which are directly aimed at teaching their flock how to deal with their "wretched man" that continues to exist with their (supposed) "new man"? Consequently, the moral standard in the Churches has significantly digressed as Pastors have had to explain away how light (God) and darkness (Satan) can abide in believers hearts at the same time (Matt. 6:22-23; Acts 26:18; 2 Co. 6:14; 1 Pe. 2:9; 1 Jn. 1:5-7).

Basically, there are two differing ideas on how exactly the old man is dealt with within the Church system. On one side of the doctrinal fence, they teach, mans nature is so wicked that he can never escape (in this lifetime) the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Pe. 1:3-4). In other words, mans sin(fulness) is a mere symptom that proceeds from his exceedingly evil human nature which is inheritly corrupted and vile to the core. Due to this disease (of sin), man must be imputed with 'alien Righteousness' (since he cannot produce virtue) and merely coveredwith magical grace (since his wicked nature doth remain even after conversion) (Acts 10:34-35). Therefore, Calvary, provided nothing more than a mere cloak for mans continually immoral and wicked behavior, which means, Christ removed the guilt so believers can sin with no more condemnation (Ro. 8:1;1 Pe. 2:16)! According to this teaching, only (physical) death (not Christ) can deliver the soul from the corrupting influence of sin and destroy the sinful disposition man was born with. Thus, sanctification is understood as a process of sinning less and less which will ultimately be cured in glorification.
 
On the opposite side of the doctrinal fence we have the teaching of John Wesley. As opposed to the above position (we briefly reviewed), Wesley spoke about the crucifixion of the old man and a 'second act of grace' (Ro. 6:6; Gal. 5:24). This is doctrinally understood as 'entire sanctification' or Christian perfection (Mat. 5:48; Ro. 12:2; 1 Co. 2:6; Col. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Tim. 3:17; Jas. 1:4; 1 Pe. 5:10). Under this teaching, man is also born a 'child of wrath' (due to Adam) and bent towards sin (due to his inherited nature). Because of this inborn flaw, human beings are understood as being opposite to all good, disabled, inclined to all evil, and totally wicked from birth. This is often referred to as inbreed sinfulness or total depravity. Due to this (sinful) condition, mankind becomes wholly incapable of responding to God and obeying His voice of their own accord (Isa. 55:7; Jer. 26:13; Jonah. 3:5-10; Mk. 1:15; 6:12). In other words, man has been implanted with a substance (understood as sin) that disallows him to choose virtue apart from an application of prevenient grace:

"Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace).

Although Wesley (and Wesleyans alike) tend to favor human liberty (or free will), the reality is Wesley's teachings clearly imply the will is ONLY free to sin until offset through an act of Divine intervention. In other words, 'prevenient grace' (or pre-v grace) must go before man and unlock his natural inability to choose God and allow him to freely make a decision he previously did not have! Again, Wesley says, "prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation ..." So, the question remains -- how can the will be ultimately free if it can only be accessed upon God allowing entry? If God has not created man truly free (creational grace) and therefore has to give man freedom through an application grace, then how can we continue to embrace the idea that man is genuinely free to begin with? Are we to believe man is born only capable of doing vice, but no virtue? How does this equal freedom? If an application of magical grace has to be applied to enable man to make a choice he previously did not have (e.g choosing God, repenting of sin, believing on Jesus, etc...), then human liberty is an allusion and man is a robot!

"Where now is our good Desire, and good Endeavor, and Application to good? For our Spirit can do nothing but evil, and is of himself but a damnable Servant. What good can a damnable Servant do of himself? So that here it is openly proved, that the Freewill of Man, of his own Strength, of his own Power, can do nothing but sin."  [Treatises, ed. Wesley, p. 90]

Is this not what the other side of the Church teaches that Wesley and followers constantly contended with? Indeed! Upon much study and meditation over this subject, I have found pre-v grace was invented by John Wesley to allow man to be able to do something he was originally born incapable of doing. In full reality, Wesleys doctrine of 'prevenient grace' was conjured up in order to remedy the transmission of original sin (which has dismantled mans original freedom of choice). Because the first parents (Adam and Eve) have universally injured their loins through their one act of disobedience, God must now remedy their sinful off springs condition (by leveling out the unbalanced will) with pre-v grace so sinful man can basically 'admit' and 'confess' he was born a sinner (repentance) and receive Jesus (Ro. 10:9-10). Upon a sinner realizing their personal disobedience to Divine law is not their fault and receiving Christ by faith (trust), they are automatically justified and granted the power of the Holy Spirit so the process of sanctification can begin.

Q & A with John Wesley (from sermon 13): 

Question: "However, there is one Scripture more which will put the matter out of question: `If any man be' a believer `in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' (2 Cor. 5:17.) Now certainly a man cannot be a new creature and an old creature at once.

Wesley: " Yes, he may: He may be partly renewed, which was the very case with those at Corinth."

Question:"But `they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts.'" (Gal. 5:24.)

Wesley: They have so; yet it remains in them still, and often struggles to break from the cross.

Question:"I am not satisfied yet: He that has sin in him, is a slave to sin. Therefore you suppose a man to be justified, while he is a slave to sin. Now, if you allow men may be justified while they have pride, anger, or unbelief in them; nay, if you aver, these are (at least for a time) in all that are justified; what wonder that we have so many proud, angry, unbelieving believers!

Wesley: I do not suppose any man who is justified is a slave to sin: Yet I do suppose sin remains (at least for a time) in all that are justified.

Back to my original question in the beginning, that being, "Is sanctification a process of sinning less and less or an act where a genuine convert grows more and more in righteousness and true holiness?" Wesley answers, after justification, the sin remains (at least for a time) in all that are justified and he also argues that the carnal mind (which is enmity against God according to Ro. 8:7) remains after conversion, which means, your mind is only partly renewed (Ro. 12:2). Therefore, my previous statement is confirmed, that is, man must be saved IN his sins, due to the stain of original sin remaining in the soul (which Wesley wholeheartly embraced)! As a result, the sin continues in believers and is gradually eliminated through the process of gradual sanctification (sinning less and less). Thus, all notions of sanctification are aimed directly at the sinful nature of man! In other words, because man is born with a substance that necessitates sin (and blocks ability to access the free will) he is wholly incapable of STOPPING any sin before he receives Jesus and the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Co. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5-7; Rev. 21:8).

As follows, Wesleyan terminology such as 'repentance', 'faith', 'obedience', 'grace', 'mercy' and 'salvation', must be understood in this light. For example, many from this camp will use the word 'repent' in their wittings and preaching, however, their definition of 'repentance' (due to embracing original sin) has NOTHING to do with ceasing any particular sin. Why? Because the sin (nature) remains, which is why, Wesley invented this two act play of salvation (Justified/Saved---then, down the road, once the stain of Adams sin is cleansed out your nature through process of Sanctification, you become ---Sanctified/Baptized w/ Holy Spirit). In other words, by Wesley embracing the notion of original sin and holding firmly the position that men have inability to turn to God in faith (apart from pre-v grace) the Scriptures have to be redefined and explained away to protect his base thought, that being, the total depravity of the human race. Consequently, many text in the Sacred Scripture lose there purpose and begin to contradict other parts of the ancient Writings. This then is where confusion takes a hold of the mind and spirit of error can begin to lead you astray (2 Co. 11:3). For example, the question was asked to Mr. Wesley: Question:"But `they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24.)? And Wesley responds with," They have so; yet it remains in them still, and often struggles to break from the cross."

Is this what the Bible teaches? Can the old and new man co-exist as Wesley has plainly implied (Matt. 5:29-30; Ro. 6:6; Gal. 2:20; 5:24; Eph. 4:22-24)? Did Paul say, old things have (past tense) passed away, behold, all things have (past tense) become new' or did he say old things have begun to pass away and all things are becoming new (2 Co. 5:17)? What did Jesus say about light and darkness abiding in the same vessel at same time (Matt. 6:22-23; Acts 26:18; 1 Co. 14:6; 1 Pe. 2:9; 1 Jn. 1:5-7)? How does God purify the heart of man (Acts 15:9; 1 Jn. 3:3)? Did Peter mention anything about a process taking place when explaining how the Gentiles were converted to the faith (Acts 15:9; 1 Pe. 1:22)? Can a double minded man receive anything from the Lord (Jas. 1:7-8)? What did Christ teach about serving two masters -- is it possible (Matt. 6:24)? How can one be carnally minded and spiritually minded simultaneously (Ro. 8:5-8)? Can a tree bear good and bad fruit (Matt. 7:18)? Can a spring yeild forth fresh and bitter water (Jas. 3:11). Does the Scripture teach that Eternal Life and eternal death can reign in the heart together (Ro. 6:23)? According to these various Bible passages, Wesleys gradual sanctification doctrine (of sinning less and less) is a myth and in error. The question is, who do you believe (Ro. 3:4)? 

As we move along you must begin to grasp that according to this teaching it is only AFTER one has been saved (in their sins) and has received the Holy Spirit (in their sins) that the process of eradicating the wicked Adamic nature (you were born with) begins. Hence, original sin necessitates salvation in sin! In between the time of receiving Jesus (Justification) and having this nature dismantled by the Holy Ghost (Sanctification), sins are winked at by God and NOT held against the believer since the convert has responded to call, prayed the prayer and acknowledged His Son as Savior (Jn. 3:16 ; Eph. 2:8-9). On top of that the Lord surely knows and is fully aware that 'babes' in Christ have no control over there sinful disposition and cannot change their habits until the Holy Spirit liberates their free will (which was lost through the fall of sin). As follows, God can't possible be too upset with new converts continual shortcomings and constant disobedience to moral law since (the reality is) its His job to make them able to do what He has commanded and demanded them to already do (Matt. 22:37-41; Mk. 1:15; Lk. 6:46-49; Acts 17:30-31; Ro. 13:8-10; Jas. 1:21-22)! Likewise, the question becomes, how can a just God hold man responsible for something he cannot avoid (such as sin)? If He does how does He remain just and righteous (Jn. 17:25)?

Believe it or not, this is the entire design and reason for the clean up programs within the Church such as books, tapes, dvds, classes, study Bibles, concerts, sports and weekend fellowship. The new convert is assured and rest in notion that its God's job to rid him of the very disease he inherited from Adam and to wing his from his inclination to gratify his natural desires. In no way could it possible be (sinful) mans job to forsake his ways, depart from iniquity and clear himself of wrong doing through a season of godly sorrow and repentance (Pro. 28:13; Isa. 55:7; Jer. 26:13; Jon. 3:5-10; Acts 17:30; 2 Co. 7:10-11; 2 Tim. 2:19). If that were so, then 'fruits worthy of repentance' and deeds that prove repentance would be mandatory right away (Matt. 3:8; Acts 26:20).  Instead, the preachers confirm constantly as long as the believer is continually allowing the Spirit to do it's internal work of sanctification (breaking him free from his sinful disposition and causing him to sin less and less) he is safe and secure in the arms of Jesus even if he has yet to crucify the misdeeds of the body with it's passions and desires (Ro. 6:6; Co. 3:5; Gal. 5:24)!

John Wesley said:

We have already died provisionally with Christ through our participation in Christ crucified; now we must permit that death to reach to the very depths of our being as we cease from self and begin to live wholly to God. The death of the "old man" is thus a process initiated by conversion and realized in sanctification. "In principle" we die with Christ in justification; in full reality we die with Him when we yield up ourselves to God as Jesus gave up His spirit to the Father on the Cross."

For mainstream Methodists and Nazarenes alike, sanctification (or sinning less and less) is a life long process of healing humanity's sin-distorted perspective and way of life. The question is why did Wesley teach the death of the old man is a process that takes a lifetime to complete? The answer is found by studying the base from which he built from, that being, the doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN. Its this very doctrine that has made allowance for the OLD man (sin nature) to come into the kingdom and be gradually cleaned up over a unknown period of time. Remember, Wesley said," The death of the "old man" is thus a process initiated by conversion and realized in sanctification."  In other words, the old man was notcrucified with his passions and desires upon entering the kingom, which means, he (the old man) got saved and continues to be joined with the new man (Col. 3:9-10; Eph. 4:22-24! Thus, the process of sanctification begins where the (the old man) is put to death by degrees, which proves that Wesleys doctrine of repentance had nothing to do with departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19)!

“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness" (Matt. 6:22-23)!

Again, did Jesus teach that light and darkness could co-exist in the heart? No, he simply said, "If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness". The Bible teaches very clearly that light and darkness are opposites and cannot be present in the same vessel at the same time (Acts 26:18; Ro. 6:14)! How can you be carnally minded and spiritually minded at the same time (Ro. 8:6; 1 Co. 2:13-16))? Impossible, unless of course you hold to original sin (which Wesley did)! Scriptures teach that the double minded man is unstable in all his ways and he cannot receive anything from God (Jas. 1:7-8). Paul made it clear to the Romans that the old man (carnal mind) is at enmity with God, that is, he cannot submit to God, obey Him or please Him (Ro.8: 6-8). This is why the Bible says to be carnally minded is death (not life), that is, spiritual death since the spiritual man and carnal man are contrary to one another and cancel each other out (Ro. 6:12; Gal. 5:16). This is why the OLD man (flesh) with his passions and desires by necessity is to be crucified with Christ IN initial repentance, NOT down the road somewhere in time we know not.

"Knowing this that our old man WAS crucified with Him" (Rom. 6:6)

"Those who are Christ HAVE crucified the flesh with it's passions and desires" (Gal. 5:24)

Notice, Scripture states that one is IN Christ upon the flesh being crucified with Him (Matt. 5:29-30; Col. 2:11-12; Gal. 2:20). Nothing is said about gradual dying out to sin over a long unknown period of time, rather, just the opposite is conveyed by Paul (2 Co. 5:17)! As we will see below the Wesleyan doctrine of 'Entire Sanctification' is actually shown as initial salvation in the Bible (2 Co. 7:10-11). Because they teach man is born with inbreed depravity, he has not the ability to clear himself of wrong doing and come to God through godly sorrow that works repentance leading to salvation (2 Co. 7:10). Instead, he must confess or admit he is a sinner and trust that God will accept him as he is, unchanged and wretched. Therefore. the only reason the Church continues to think the whole process is positional (The death of the "old man" is thus a process initiated by conversion and realized in sanctification) is that NO ONE is repenting of their sin and clearing themselves of ALL wrong doing! Rather, they are being told (directly and indirectly) that God will save them IN their sins and clean them up later by changing their desires by degree. Only problem is, this is suppose to happen in repentance! The truth is, you cannot teach someone to do what is right if they have never done what is right to begin with! And unless the old man (of sin) dies with Christ IN repentance your desires will NEVER really change or become new. As follows, you may fashion yourself into a 'Christian' but inside  (like the Pharisee's of old) you will remain double-minded and divided in you heart (waiting for God to magically clean you up)!

Examples of Questions and Answers from Present Day Pastors on Death of Old Man:

Q) Does a person have to crucify the old man in order to get saved?

We do not crucify our old man but we put it on the altar to die with Christ. The only thing he asks for is our submission to him. He does the rest. If we work in our will and power to crucify our sinful nature we will never make it. Or, if we did, we would end up with spiritual pride and think we could earn our way to heaven.
Pastor Jeff
 
A person getting saved must understand that Jesus is Lord.  The trouble with the "old man" is that the "old man" wants to bow to one!  As one grows and matures in their walk with Jesus, the "old man" will either "win" or "lose" depending upon how much we "feed him!"
For power and peace in a life, "Jesus is Lord" is what it is!
Pastor Mike
 
In our tradition we teach that to be saved we must 1) repent of our sins trusting that Christ’s death on our behalf is sufficient sacrifice for our sins AND that 2) we commit ourselves to a lifetime as apprentices to Jesus Christ. Our concept of “crucifying the old man” is part of the process of sanctification that God does in our life as we live out the first paragraph. Hope that helps. If you don’t mind sharing it with me, who are you?  Why is going on in your life to prompt you to ask?  And why did you happen to send your question to me?
Tim.

Many people would answer this question with a simple 'no', but that would ignore the clear call of scripture to put the old carnal nature to death.  At salvation, when we realize that we need a savior, we ask Jesus Christ to come into our lives, and to forgive us of our sins, a process begins which leads to increasingly putting the old man or carnal nature to death.  The fruit of salvation should be that the old man is decreasing and Christ is increasing in how one thinks, acts, and speaks.  We cannot do this by our own will, it is the result of growing in our relationship with Jesus Christ, and submitting to the leadership of the Holy Spirit. I hope this helps. john
 
... a person "getting saved" does not depend on anything but the grace of Jesus.  Nothing, nothing, nothing at all. dave

Since the old man doesn't have to be crucified through process of repentance, when then does he die (2 Co. 7:10-11)? Likewise, since the sin doesn't have to STOP when coming to the mercy seat, when does it have to stop? The answer is it NEVER will - unless of course you actually reach part two of grace, that being, entirely sanctified! So, what are we to do with the convert who has prayed the sinners prayer, begun coming to Bible study, who is still drinking, smoking, cussing, lying, fornicating, and friends with the world? How can they be accountable for those sins, IF those very sins didn't have to stop when coming into the kingdom (1 Co. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5-7; Rev. 21:8)? If the preacher didn't address the sinful conduct they were engaged with prior to their  (so called) conversion, then what right does he have to mention anything after they have already repeated after him and trusted in Jesus (Jn. 3:16)? Impossible! Can you begin to understand why NONE of the preachers today seem to get too upset or verbally mention anything about the sin among the people? Re-read the quotes above again and watch the Scripture be fulfilled. Peter said (in the context of false teachers), "they promise you liberty in Christ (pray this prayer, repeat after me, etc...) while you remain enslaved to your [inward] corruption"...(2 Pe. 2:18-19). Again, which one of the above (holiness) preachers called for genuine repentance PROVEN by deeds, death to sin and a full CEASING and amending of wrong doings? None, why? To them, it's God's job to clean you up since your were born a sinner!

Now, if the believer who is justified and partly sanctified decides they want to sell out for Jesus (discipleship so to speak) and concentrate themselves to the Lord completely, they will indeed receive a 'second act' of grace Divinely communicated to their soul which is understood as entire sanctification or the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' (Mk. 1:4Lk. 3:3; Ro. 8:16). At this point in time, the soul which has reached this pinnacle peak of the Christian faith has been cleansed (entirely) from the original sin of Adam (that polluted their very nature) and has had their will completely reinstated to them (by God) to the condition it was BEFORE Adam fell in the garden of Eden. In other words, the sin nature has finally been destroyed, the new man has now been born, which means, the will has been sanctified and is completely able to choose between right and wrong (which of course before it could not)! As follows, man is now responsible for the deeds done in the body, whether good or bad (2 Co. 5:10). At this point, if the fully sanctified believer goes on 'willfully sinning' he is in BIG TROUBLE being he/she is completely sanctified (Heb. 6:6; 10:26-31)! Thus, the Christian is genuinely and sincerely converted to God, separate from sin, and entirely cleaned up by the Holy Spirit. This is how the holiness preachers (of Wesleys day!) used to preach sanctification and holiness of heart to the people. Below, I will post responses from modern day (holiness) preachers in regards to the necessity of entire sanctification. You must understand, according to the old holiness preachers, an essential qualification for entrance into heaven was entire sanctification (personal holiness) and baptism of the Holy Spirit  (Matt. 5:8, 48; Ro. 5:21; 8:13; 1 Co. 6:9; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:14; 2 Pe. 1:3-11; Rev. 21:27; 22:14).

Examples of Questions and Answers from Present Day Pastors on Entire Sanctification:

Q) Question...If a person has been converted, yet fails to reach entire sanctification (e.g perfection) will it affect their eternal destiny?

Dear Chris:
Thanks for your question. The doctrine of Entire Sanctification or Perfection is considered in Holiness theology as a "second work of grace".  It is looked forward to by Ezekiel in 36:25-27 and described by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-24.  It is a work not that we accomplish but that is given by God's grace. If  the "second work" is not received - it does not take away from the power or affect of the "first work" of salvation.  Therefore, the unsanctified Christian is still a child of God and will still enter heaven even if their walk is "worldly" as described in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.  Entire Sanctification is a blessing the Lord promises and a gift given. Hope this helps :)  Pastor Stan

As long as a person had repented of their sins and trusting in Chirst for salvation, they will be saved. Sorry for my slow response. Blessings to you! Pastor Bill

The answer is: no.  If it is possible that in the grace of God and with faithfulness of heart some experience “entire sanctification” in this life, the number who do is very small.  The overwhelming majority of Christians die with the stain of sin still in our lives, and we are saved by grace.  Otherwise, heaven would be a very big place with very few folks!   Steve

I believe the answer to your question concerning failure to reach perfection and its impacct on eternal salvation to be that it does not impact eternity.  Dr. L. James

HI Chris,
No, we do not believe that a person's entire sanctification affects his/her eternal destiny.  Peace, Mike

I appreciate the question, Chris. I believe Christian Perfection is more about being made whole, complete, mature, reaching the goal for which we were created in love. It’s more about recovery of God’s image, the image defaced by sin.  I believe we are and will be with God in Jesus by God’s love and grace-- whether or not we have been made complete in love in this life. Thanks and peace,  Scott

Hi Chris,
I have some thoughts on this that might be of some help.  The short answer is no, entire sanctification does not affect your eternal destiny.  However, if this process is refused by the believer (assuming the Holy Spirit is challenging the believer to die to self and embrace this work of grace) it could be a stumbling block to their faith journey.  It is not seen by me as a covenant breaker - belief in Christ and redemption (forgiveness of sins) is requirement for a walk in faith which ultimately leads one toward eternity in Heaven.  Sanctification only makes that journey on this side of eternity sweeter (in my opinion).   Terry

Again, the old man is not being put to death in initial repentance (due to the doctrine of original sin) and therefore is being brought into the kingdom and reformed! Only problem is the old man can't be reformed, which is why he has to die in repentance (Ro. 6:6; Ro. 8:5-8; Eph. 4:22-24; Gal. 5:24). As the emails clearly prove, this concept of conversion is ENTIRELY gone from our day! Therefore, the old man gets saved and sanctified through a process of sinning LESS AND LESS. Again, I repeat, the old preachers (who fully embraced the false doctrine of original sin) would be sure to tell you if you don't live a holy life, obedient to the Lord, you would be lost in the end. This is what sparked my question, "If a person has been converted, yet fails to reach entire sanctification (e.g perfection) will it affect their eternal destiny?" And he overall answer to such a question (as shown above) is NO, which means, personal holiness (or obedience to the Christ) is not mandatory! Does this not cause a moral dilemma within the Church? Have you ever heard of the carnal Christian (1 Co. 3:3)?

Because of this very thing (carnal activity) a system has been invented where you can get saved (provisionally) IN sin and consequently fail to be sanctified (set-apart) and still go into the Kingdom of God. Now, let's pause and think for a quick moment --seriously -- how is this any different from the system of Calvinism that they are constantly at odds with? Are they really at opposed to one another or are they just IN-house debating with 'brethren'? If they were truly teaching two separate Gospels (as everyone seems to believe), how is it they get along so well in and outside the Church? The reality is they are teaching the SAME thing in the end (and believe me seeing this doesn't happen over night!) Matter of fact, in the year 1765, Wesley wrote to John Newton, "I think on Justification just as I have done any time these seven-and-twenty years, and just as Mr. Calvin does." [John Telford, ed., The Letters of John Wesley, A.M. 8 vols. (London: The Epworth Press, 1931), 4:298.] While in another book Wesley himself is quoted by the author as saying he was but a "hair's breadth" away from Calvinism, and it is prevenient grace which provides the "hair" (An introduction to Wesleyan Theology, William M Greathouse and H. Ray Dunning, Pg. 67-68). These statements (and many more!) have led me to conclude that the only notable differences between John Wesley and John Clavin is the doctrine of prevenient grace, which of course is a universal call from God to all men (as opposed to irresistible grace to certain men) and the doctrine of entire sanctification (the removal of the stain of Original Sin which the Calvinist deny completely). However, since the (so called) 'holiness' preachers have quit demanding obedience to the faith and victory over sin, it does no more to remove man from the corrupting influence of sin than the preachers of imputed righteousness! Again, the terminology is different, but the bottom line remains as the brother once put it:

"There is no sins you have to stop doing to get saved; no sins you have to stop doing to stay saved, and in fact if you try and please God by not sinning and obeying Him you will cancel grace out because salvation is only trusting that God sees you as if you were Jesus not sinning, even when you do."

The Bible teaches no such heresy! In the Scriptures, the convert is transformed from darkness to light, that is, from the power of Satan to God (Acts 26:18)! "Old things (old man) pass away, and all things become new"(2 Co. 5:17). Then, the babe in Christ must be instructed by Spirit of truth to grow more and more in the knowledge of Him who called in righteousness and true holiness (Jn. 13:16; 14:21;1 Pet. 2:1-3 & Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Jn. 2:20, 21). Without a doubt, the Word plainly tells us that we are cleansed, purged and purified from an evil conscience through repentance towards God and faith in the blood of Christ (Acts 15:9; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 1:3; 9:13-14; Tit. 2:14; 1 Pe. 1:22; 1 Jn. 1:5-7; 3:3). Likewise, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, that is, once for all (Isa. 53:10; 1 Co. 1:30; 6:11; 2 Co. 5:21; Heb. 9:13-14; 10:10)! Hence, justification and sanctification are synonymous terms that cannot be separated! Am I denying the Bible teaches a doctrine of sanctification? NO! However, the Biblical doctrine of sanctification is aimed at growing more and more in righteousness NOT sinning less and less (2 Pe. 1:2-11; 1 Jn. 3:7). Why is it not sinning less and less? Because sin was suppose to STOP in reconciliation (Acts 26:20; 2 Co. 5:20; Jas. 1:21). Hence, go and sin NO MORE (Jn. 5:14; 8:11)!

Sanctification References in Scripture:

..you shall be holy; for I am holy..." (Lev. 11:44).
    
"I will run the course of Your commandments, For You shall enlarge my heart" (Psa. 119:32).
   
"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48).
    
"...He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (Jn. 15:5).
 
"But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life" (Ro. 6:22).
 
...purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:9).
    
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption... (1 Cor. 1:30).
    
"...But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11).

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Cor. 3:18).
    
"...beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor. 7:1).
    
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification..."(1 Thess. 4:3). 

"For God did not call us to uncleaness but in holiness" (1 Thess. 4:7).

"May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23).
   
"Therefore leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on unto perfection..." (Heb. 6:1).
    
"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14).
    
"But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing" (James 1:4).
 
 "...but, as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy for I am holy..." (1 Pe. 1:15-16).
   
"...giving all diligence, ADD to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self control, to self control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love" (2 Pe. 1: 5-7).

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love" (1 Jn. 4:18).  
 
Perhaps, most disturbing of all is the (concealed) letters of John Wesley which were left behind in various journals and writtings. It appears Mr. Wesley was highly confused and doubtful of his salvation towards the latter end of his life. It is remarkable that he would venture to tell his brother (Charles in a concealed letter) that, "I do not love God. I never did." (Referenced below). Although Wesley was a major player in the holiness movement and left behind many works which the multitudes today count as gold, it is eaisly seen that he was in doctrinal error due to embracing original sin (which necessitated) salvation in sin and the gradual clean up of the old man. Because of this (faulty) position, Wesley was forced to separate justification (1st act of grace) and sanctification (2nd act of grace) which has created a HUGE gray area, wherein, sin remains ‘unaccountable’ in believers, (because you were born with it) and its God’s task to cleanse it out of you. Thus, the entire gospel is aimed at keeping the OLD man alive, which means, the warnings of the Scripture are removed form the pulpit. This would be why the modern day ministers (more than ever!) preach flowery sermons about 'doing the right thing' and 'being good person', but never seem to get around to warning the people about sin, righteousness and judgement! Below are quotes from Wesleys own pen that show he was in deep distress over his salvation and position in Christ.

The following is an excerpt from a very dark though remarkably honest letter from John to his brother Charles in June 1766:

“In one of my last {letters}I was saying I do not feel the wrath of God abiding on me; nor can I believe it does. And yet (this is the mystery) [I do not love God. I never did.] Therefore [I never] believed in the Christian sense of the word. Therefore [I am only an] honest heathen, a proselyte of the Temple, one of the God-fearers."

And yet, to be so employed of God! And so hedged in that I can neither get forward nor backward! Surely there was never such an instance before, from the beginning of the world! If I ever have had that faith, it would not be so strange. But I never had any other evidence of the eternal or invisible world than I have now; and that is none at all, unless such as faintly shines from reason’s glimmering ray. I have no direct witness [I do not say, that I am a child of God, but] of anything invisible or eternal.”

“And yet I dare not preach otherwise than I do, either concerning faith, or love, or justification, or perfection. And yet I find rather an increase than a decrease of zeal for the whole work of God and every part of it. I am borne along, I know not how, that I can’t stand still. I want all the world to come to what I do not know.”  [quoted in Stephen Tomkins, John Wesley, A Biography (Oxford: Lion Publishing, 2003), p. 168 - The bracketed material was written in shorthand which meant that it was for Charles' eyes only]

The following is an excerpt from Wesley's Journal:

    Thur. Jan 4th 1739
    "My friends affirm I am mad, because I said I was not a Christian a year ago. I affirm, I am not a Christian now. Indeed, what I might have been I know not, had I been faithful to the grace then given, when, expecting nothing less, I recieved such a sense of the forgiveness of my sins, as till then I never knew. But that I am not a Christian at this day, I as assuredly know, as that Jesus is the Christ. 

    "For a Christian is one who has the fruits of the Spirit of Christ, which (to mention no more) are love, peace, joy. But these I have not. I have not any love of God. I do not love either the Father or the Son. do you ask, how do I know whether I love God, I answer by another question, 'How do you know whether you love me?' Why, as you know whether you are hot or cold. you feel this moment, that you do or do not love me. And I feel this moment, I do not love God; which therefore I know, because I feel it. There is no word more proper, more clear, or more strong.

    "And I know it also by St. John's plain rule, 'If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.' For I love the world. I desire the things of the world, some or other of them, and have done all my life. I have always placed some part of my happiness in some or other of the things that are seen. Particularly in meat and drink, and in the company of those I loved. For many years I have been, yea, and still am, hankering after a happiness, in loving, and being loved by one or another. And in these I have from time to time taken more pleasure than in God.

    "Again, joy in the Holy Ghost I have not. I have now and then some starts of joy in God: But it is not that joy. For it is not abiding. Neither is it greater than I have had on some worldly occasions. So that I can in no wise be said to 'rejoice evermore;' much less to 'rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.'

    "Yet again: I have not 'the peace of God;' that peace, peculiarly so called. The peace I have may be accounted for on natural principles. I have health, strength, friends, a competent fortune, and a composed, cheerful temper. Who would not have a sort of peace in such circumstances? But I have none which can with any propriety be called, a 'peace which passeth all understanding.'

    "From hence I conclude, (and let all the saints of the world hear, that whereinsoever they boast, they may be found even as I,) though I have given, and do give, all my goods to feed the poor, I am not a Christian. Though I have endured hardship, though I have in all things denied myself and taken up my cross, I am not a Christian. My works are nothing, my sufferings are nothing; I have not the fruits of the Spirit of Christ. Though I have constantly used all the means of grace for twenty years, I am not a Christian." [The journal of the rev. John Wesley By John Wesley (Volume I , London 1827 p.165]

In conclusion, I believe it is the very doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN has silently distorted the Biblical message of "sin shall NOT have dominion over you"and has created a notion that sin is a physical issue rather than moral (Jas. 4:17; 1 Jn. 3:4). Until preachers and sincere Bible students re-examine the teachings of Augustine and his dualistic nature teaching, we will get no where. Universally, both sides of the modern day Church are under the delusion of this doctrine -- some more than others of course. This doctrine excuses sin, forgives UN-repentant criminals and compares the Blood of Christ to the blood of bulls and goats which could NEVER purge sin (Tit. 2:14; Heb. 1:3; 9:13-14; 10:10; Rev. 1:5). Due to this teaching, no one is being convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment being sin is a necessity of nature rather than a moral choice! Consequently very few are coming to a genuine repentance and faith in Christ Jesus (Jn. 1:9; 16:8; Acts 17:30-31; 20:21;Ro. 2:12-16; 2 Co. 7:10-11). Until this doctrine is rejected, we will continue to see double minded faithful Church attendees who are in bondage to their own passions and desires (Gal. 5:24). As long as the old man is KEPT alive, the new man is not arrived! The old man MUST be put to death with Christ up front or he will NEVER die, which means, sanctification is a process of growing more and more in grace -- NOT -- sinning less and less!

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